John Carlin is against Catalan independence, but he paints a picture - mostly through the views of his UK media contacts - of a Spanish establishment that has gone completely off the rails in its persecution of the Catalan independence movement. The respected UK journalist and long-time commentator on Spain spoke to Radio Euskadi (in Spanish) on 4th April, answering Dani Álvarez's questions about how people abroad, in the UK especially, are seeing the Spain/Catalonia crisis. Here's a translation to English of that radio interview.
John Carlin: My perception, looking at things over the last few days, the last week, is that in the rest of the world, people who look at Spain have a growing sensation that the Government and the central Spanish state are making idiots of themselves. This doesn’t mean that people are applauding the Catalan leader Puigdemont or are 100% behind him and the separatists, there is the sensation that they are putting on quite a ridiculous performance too. But the most worrying thing for Spain is this perception that after 40 years of making progress on a democratic path, suddenly it has gone backwards and is turning into something more like a banana republic. And this is not very compatible with what we understand as democracy in Western Europe.
Dani Álvarez: Is this the attitude we have seen in The Times of London and some other media: that they are not necessarily in favour of the views of the independence movement but they have a negative opinion of Rajoy?
Yes, the Times of London is one particular case, it is not, to say the least, a radical or leftish newspaper; The New York Times similarly, and Der Spiegel in Germany. But here in London I speak to people, and I’m not talking about the typical people that would always be in favour of Catalan independence movement or the like; but rather, last week I was in a private gentlemen’s club of the type that have existed for 200 years, talking to a Lord, and he said: “The thing is, the Spanish government has gone stark raving mad. Spain is making itself look stupid.” Two days ago I was at the BBC, they were interviewing me about the death of Winnie Mandela, and while talking to producers, there were asking “What’s happening in Spain? They’ve gone completely crazy”.
And basically it’s a proposition that is completely disproportionate: thirteen people, who have been formally accused, charged with rebellion, which is understood as something that includes violence, when what everyone can see this is something in which there was not a single death, not a single serious injury, not a single pistol or bomb, not a stone thrown, but what is being asked for is to put these people in jail for 30 years. And this seems to be quite a long way away from the basic concept of democracy.
John, you are using very strong terms here, even if they are not your terms, they are things that people have said to you. “They are crazy, a banana state, making idiots of themselves”. Is this a widespread opinion, or just anecdotes?
I can only talk about people who have a level of interest in Spain, and that’s a minority... but I am talking about journalists from the Times of London, and the Financial Times, [inaudible], the Labour Party, people who work at the BBC, [inaudible] here in London it is quite general that people think that Spain is making an idiot of itself, and there is a grotesque disproportion between what happened and the sentences that they are asking for. And imposing.
I also wanted to ask you about Manchester City’s Catalan football coach Pep Guardiola, who is being very persistent in his demands for the people who have been imprisoned and for the independence cause, he refused to take off his yellow ribbon, in spite of being warned he could be fined, and he answers all the question put to him about this. What role is Pep Guardiola playing in the spread of what you are talking about?
Well, I’ll say a couple of things. Firstly, we have the fabulous irony, that with the possible exception of Rafa Nadal, there is no-one else in the world who is doing more to promote Spain’s brand in the world than Pep Guardiola. On the other hand, people who have political attitudes like him are quite uncommon in the world of football, and also, he is of course doing more for the cause of the prisoners than anyone else in the world.
But there was one thing, which left me quite shocked, an article a few days ago in El País, the voice of the Spanish establishment, which compared Guardiola with Goebbels, Hitler’s propaganda chief, saying that Guardiola is a Nazi. And there, I’ll say it again – they are making idiots of themselves. All the people I know in the media here - and there are a lot of them - in the Times, Financial Times, and now, it’s been published in the Daily Mail as well, their reaction is one of shock, that what’s supposed to be the biggest and most serious newspaper in Spain makes this sort of comparison.
And when you see something so out of proportion and so immoral, making this connection between a movement which - you can also say that Catalan independence is absurd – but making a comparison with a regime which dedicated itself to the death and extermination of millions of people, makes not only El País look ridiculous but also the people in the Spanish establishment whose voice it represents.
John, we know that you’ve said many times that you support a negotiated and reasonable solution for Catalonia, but I detect quite a lot of pessimism in your tone and words this morning.
I don’t think there’s any possibility of a negotiated solution to be seen. What I want is for Catalonia to continue within Spain and for us to return to the situation of peace and serenity and prosperity before all these troubles started. But, that’s not to be seen, and apart from that, the Spanish government has handed over the management of the Catalan issue to the law, to the judges, who have much less room for manoeuvre than in the political arena, and for that reason, the possibility of reaching a civilised, intelligent, pragmatic [agreement], [for something] which could have been resolved years ago easily with a minimum of political capability, I see as very difficult, quite remote, it’s been on the same track for a long time.
And now it seems [with last week’s arrest of Puigdemont] they’re celebrating the law, the defeat of the process, and all that, fantastic – it would be very nice if it could put an end to the process and the independence movement – but what’s happening now is that with the judicial process, they are sowing seeds of resentment, which will sprout, I don’t know if it will be today, tomorrow, in three years or ten years, but resentment is a very potent, dangerous force in the world in general and in the particular politics here, and it’s not going to make pro-independence sentiment disappear, but rather in the medium and long term, it’s more likely to be the opposite.
John, we know that you’ve said many times that you support a negotiated and reasonable solution for Catalonia, but I detect quite a lot of pessimism in your tone and words this morning.
I don’t think there’s any possibility of a negotiated solution to be seen. What I want is for Catalonia to continue within Spain and for us to return to the situation of peace and serenity and prosperity before all these troubles started. But, that’s not to be seen, and apart from that, the Spanish government has handed over the management of the Catalan issue to the law, to the judges, who have much less room for manoeuvre than in the political arena, and for that reason, the possibility of reaching a civilised, intelligent, pragmatic [agreement], [for something] which could have been resolved years ago easily with a minimum of political capability, I see as very difficult, quite remote, it’s been on the same track for a long time.
And now it seems [with last week’s arrest of Puigdemont] they’re celebrating the law, the defeat of the process, and all that, fantastic – it would be very nice if it could put an end to the process and the independence movement – but what’s happening now is that with the judicial process, they are sowing seeds of resentment, which will sprout, I don’t know if it will be today, tomorrow, in three years or ten years, but resentment is a very potent, dangerous force in the world in general and in the particular politics here, and it’s not going to make pro-independence sentiment disappear, but rather in the medium and long term, it’s more likely to be the opposite.
