Carme Junyent: The present and future in Catalan. An interview by Pep Elias.

Carme Junyent. Foto: Pep Elias

In the world of Catalan linguistic politics, which at times seems to produce more heat than light, it is refreshing to hear the voice of a language expert who says what she thinks, even if that may not please everybody: Professor Carme Junyent, specialist in linguistic diversity and endangered languages at the University of Barcelona. 

A few examples: on the question of the survival of the Catalan language, Junyent is forthright in saying it’s close to “doomed”; that sounds like a big call, given that this is a language that has 10 million speakers and whose energetic recovery from decline and persecution is often proudly celebrated. As for Catalan independence from Spain, Junyent sees that it could be a way of strengthening the language – but argues that the pro-independence parties’ current linguistic plans for post-independence Catalonia would in reality guarantee the extinction of Catalan. Carme Junyent has also ventured into political incorrectness with her comments on the ongoing judicial battles between Catalan and Spanish authorities over the “Immersion” policy for the use of Catalan as the teaching language in all of Catalonia's schools. She surprisingly says it might be more honest to simply accept what the Spanish authorities have decreed: 25% classroom use of Spanish for the entire class if it is demanded by the parents of even just one student. 

This interview with Carme Junyent is the work of journalist and writer Pep Elias, who kindly gave his blessing to my idea to translate and republish it in English. The original in Catalan is here. The translation includes most of the original text, and any changes to add context or clarity are in [square brackets]. The interview is from early 2015 but the content is just as relevant as ever - even  on the Immersion issue which is the first topic raised...   

Pep Elias: Let's talk about the umpteenth ruling of the Supreme Court. The judicial steamroller directed against the Immersion policy does not stop. Will it achieve its goal?

Carmen Junyent: I think we should stop being hypocritical and say: so they want 25% in Castilian? Very good, so do we! Because right now the fact is, we know that the majority of teaching at secondary school is given in Castilian. So, why so much drama to defend something that, in reality, is not being enforced? Either we say clearly what is happening –and then it is ourselves that will be faced with the conflict- or we obey the court sentence and say: we want the 25%, but let's make it a real 25%, and not a single point more.

-Without any doubletalk.

-The thing is, this debate is exhausting and nobody has ever faced what is really happening, especially the secondary schools themselves. It might also be happening at primary schools; not so much, but happening even so. In any case, the serious problem is at secondary level and no-one has ever confronted that. It suits us very well for the Supreme Court to target us in this way because it gives us a good pretext, but beyond that, knowing what the reality is, I won't join in with the hypocrisy of getting upset about it, because we have created the problem ourselves.

-But there are people who back having more Castilian in schools. There are people who say that children in, say, Igualada don't speak Castilian well.

-They can't have heard them speaking Catalan! For a start, here we have this concept of what it means to speak a language well. I am a linguist, and linguists describe and do not prescribe. As such, we find it difficult to say whether something has been said well or badly. This week I heard an MP from the Partido Popular asking rhetorically whether we would end up speaking Castilian like [Catalan politician] Marta Rovira. What's wrong with Marta Rovira's Castilian? I would say that everyone understood her perfectly. I can't recall any significant error of syntax, perhaps there was some lexical interference, although I can't remember any instance of that either, but I suppose that what worries them is the accent. The accent is what sets people apart and there is a lot of prejudice against the Catalan accent. To me it's great that people have accents, because it gives a lot of information about them.

-Nobody criticises the Castilian of [Andalusian politician] Susana Diaz, who also has a strong accent.

-Exactly. But there are even many Catalans who criticise the Castilian of Marta Rovira. Well, excuse me, but it is the Castilian of a person that lives here and has [Catalan as] a first language and it is very good that this fact is noticeable in the other languages she speaks.

-In any case, given the way things are, what will happen if one day the courts manage to demolish linguistic immersion?

-I think that the debate is really about whether we want all our kids to have the same education. Whether [the Spanish authorities] are going to take us to a situation in which we end up marginalizing a significant proportion of children. And, moreover, that they could do this at the instigation of parents... I think that if we do that we're heading for a very conflictive society. The question is: if they want to exterminate Catalan, they should say so clearly. If they justify their actions as a matter of civil rights, then we’ll see whether it achieves those results.

-They know that the language is a key element.

-For me, more than being a question of language, this is a question of our attitude to knowledge. A person who refuses to learn something or doesn't want his or her children to learn something... I can't understand that there is reluctance towards gaining knowledge. Thus, the problem is something else, it is not in the language. If they achieve [the abolition of Immersion] perhaps a lot of Catalans will feel privileged, because they will have a public school system which will be as if it were private. I don't know what they want, but that's what will happen.

-Those who are most optimistic say that if Franco didn't manage to destroy Catalan, it won't be possible under democracy either...

-I always say that Franco had a problem, and that problem was my grandmother – she only spoke Catalan. In the Franco era, there were still a lot of monolingual Catalan speakers. So it wasn't possible to propose that they switch languages, because they didn't have another one available. We can't believe that we are a special people [for having defeated efforts to abolish the language], we have the same linguistic behaviour as everybody. And if the school system had been better implemented in the Franco era and before, maybe they would have achieved it; it would have been like in France. But we were also lucky, in that regard, that we were a little behind the times. In the end, it isn't the dictatorship or democracy which plays the key role, but the speakers of the language. The speakers, if they make themselves responsible, not so much for the language as for the future of the linguistic diversity. I think that we all have a part to play and, if we don't want to contribute to the death of languages, we have a good cause that we can get behind.

Pupils at a Barcelona primary school

-From that monolingual reality we have changed to a multilingual situation, with students who learn Catalan at school but at home speak Arabic, Romanian, Urdu... This may be an added threat to Catalan, but it could also be an opportunity. How do we tackle this?

-Well, I think that precisely what is needed is recognition. First of all, all these Catalans who speak different languages, which are neither Catalan nor Castilian, are already a great opportunity to gain new speakers. As such, they could help us grow, but also to change our linguistic behaviour. Because in situations of bilingualism, the norm known as convergence [-the tendency for people to use the more dominant language when they speak to someone they don't know-] is common reality. If we recognise that the other person is at the same distance from Catalan as from Castilian we could change this behaviour and speak to them in Catalan. The thing is, I don't know if we are really doing things right, because in many ways we are bonding this diverse group to Castilian. We relate to them in Castilian and help to add them to the group that may end up devouring Catalan, if we become a bilingual society. Thus, we need to know how to go about this and do it very well.

-But the problem is that Catalan continues to be the "marked" language.

-Yes, but this is one of the problems that Catalans have and we need to accept our responsibility. If we are the first to hide our language because we imagine that it will give us problems, or for whatever reason, we have to assume the consequences.

-Do endangered languages usually have to contend with a hostile state, as in our case?

-Not necessarily. A state, however hostile it may be, cannot do anything if it is the will of the speakers to maintain their language, and that is what we should be clear on: the force is in our hands. Because if we say no, the state can do whatever it likes, but we will still retain the language. So it is also our responsibility. Because it’s also very easy for us to say that we have the state against us and that that’s why things are going badly, but then, in the area where we really do have the power, we don’t exercise it. So we should forget what the state says and do our own thing.

-In theory, the school system guarantees the learning of the language.  What we don’t know how to do is guarantee its use.

-But many of the linguistic habits which are taught in schools are the habits used in the street. So, Catalan may be the classroom language - although it’s not always -, but after class, in their interpersonal communication, many teachers, both primary and secondary, speak in the language of the student. And in this way we are transmitting to them which language they should use for life and for communication, meanwhile at school they use this other thing, Catalan, which is strange.

-They learn Catalan as if they were learning Latin...

-Sure, sure. In many cases it’s like that. Many kids must think that Catalan isn’t a language for speaking. And the language is taught, but in many cases their competence is more than doubtful; I don’t know if it’s really taught.

An estelada - Catalan independence flag - in Barcelona's Plaça Sant Jaume

-Many people believe that with independence we would have the survival of Catalan guaranteed. But, apart from the fact that we still have to achieve independence, do we really not have to worry?

-There are two possible answers to this question. If independence means that, as [pro-independence Catalan political parties] Esquerra and Convergència want, there will be two co-official languages, we are heading directly to the extinction of Catalan, and there’s no question about it. However the other question is whether independence could help the survival of the language. And yes it could, if we do it right, because, and I say it again, it depends to a large extent on the speakers. I think that in terms of the challenge posed by independence itself, the challenge of the language is not exactly the most difficult part. But those who are prepared to achieve independence are, I think, also prepared to make Catalan the language of this new country.

-As such, does it have to be the official language?

-I believe that "official status" doesn’t serve any purpose and nor does it worry me. But, on the other hand, it is necessary to give recognition to Catalan, as the language which has developed in this land. There are also the cases of the Vall d’Aran [where Aranese is spoken] and Catalan sign language, which are specific cases which can only be fought for here. But after that, there are all the other languages, and among them is Castilian.

-Castilian, which is also a majority language.

-Yes, and for the reason that it is a majority language, in the case of Castilian there are many people who would not adapt overnight; therefore, I think there should be a sufficiently long adjustment period (I always say about twenty years), in which, if necessary, there have to be translation services, etcetera. Because people in their everyday lives with their families will speak the language they want. This is not something the state should get involved in. The object is that people should not have to give up their language in any situation, that you should not have to switch languages because the other person doesn’t understand you. Since this is not something achieved overnight, we need this period of transition in government, education, the justice system...

-And the other languages?

-They also have to be taken into account. And I think a fundamental principle is that no one should feel discriminated against for reasons of language. There are many people who have discovered their own language in Catalonia, precisely because they have equated the status of their language with that of Catalan here. I think this is a positive element worth promoting. Probably, with independence, it will be easier if we realize that Catalan is not the language of one group, but rather a collective project and that, if we succeed in preserving it, precisely through having done so, it will be the language of everyone, not just of one group.

-But at present, this collective of people who have other languages, does not use Catalan spontaneously in many social and work areas.

-More than anything, this is because many ghettos were created where it was really not necessary. Among other cases, right here in [my town of] Masquefa, there are many people of my age who I don’t remember whether they were born here or someone else, because in situations where the mutual coexistence is simpler, there is much more permeability and there are more people who have acquired Catalan and have made it their language and that of their children. I mean to say that this is possible: we have to know how to achieve it. And, apart from the recognition of this whole sector which has made Catalan its first language, I think we have to appeal to the complicity of speakers of dominant languages. Without this support, it won’t work.

-Talking of dominant languages, what should we do about English?

-Probably the worst problem with English is the type of fetish that we have for it and it is another one of these things that takes time. You cannot improvise, and suddenly start doing your teaching in English when you don’t have the teachers trained or the process decided. But it must also be said, partly to demystify this story, that if the international lingua franca, was Italian rather than English, we would all now be able to speak the international lingua franca. When it is said that in the Nordic countries everyone speaks English so well, the point is, of course, that they have it much easier because they are languages are the same group. And then there is the issue of language teaching, and the dubbing of films, which does not help. Because, ultimately, we are also suffering from the state’s monolingual vision, which makes us see other languages as a threat.

-It is, then, a question of time.

-Yes, but I also think that they are going a little too far, in the sense that everyone has to learn English, because there are clearly other languages that are necessary and a diversification of what is studied would not lead, for example, to students failing. If the kids who speak certain languages at home could learn them as a second language at secondary or primary school, this would be much more productive and I’m not sure if this is being considered. For example, I suppose that now, for working on the coast, it’s more useful to speak Russian. What I mean is, we can learn many other languages. The problem of learning English is that it makes you believe that by speaking English you will no longer need any other language, and this is a mistake.

-But this is not only happening here.

-In the field of knowledge, in science, I think Europe is wrong and that it will pay dearly, because we are giving up all the contributions we could make in order to subordinate them to what the empire demands. That is, that there is only one form of knowledge, which is theirs. And the contributions that have been made from Europe in very different languages ...

-But English allows you to reach the whole world.

-Just recently I saw a statistic on the most influential books of the twentieth century in sociology, and only four on the list were written in English, the others weren’t. And yet, they pressure us to work in English as well. But one thing is going to a conference and understanding, and another is this reluctance to listen to anyone if they don’t speak English. There is also the issue of the indexed journals, in which you inevitably have to write in English. The average number of readers for an article in these magazines: six. This means that there are many items that nobody ever reads. That is, you make huge efforts to produce an article in English which afterwards does not have any kind of impact. All this is to get noticed.

-What do we have to do, then?

-What I tell my students is that English is a language that you have to know, but that you don’t have to use. I am interested in all languages, including English, but we are using it in many cases when we don't need to and that goes against us in everything.

-Let’s get back to Catalan. Can we be optimistic or do you think that in a few years it will change from being a threatened language to being a doomed language?

-It’s still not doomed, but it’s not far off. I'm optimistic, in the sense that I work to prevent that from happening. And whatever the statistics and even the reality says, I can’t say enough about the faith I have in young people today. I mean the very young people, today’s teenagers. These people may end up making the change, which previous generations have failed to do. However, the thesis that Rossich and Rafanell put forward, in 1989, that the process of substituting Catalan would be unstoppable within fifty years –that is, around 2040- I think remains valid. Because they didn’t say that people would stop speaking Catalan. What they were talking about was that the last generation that had Catalan as its mother tongue would abandon it and address their children in Spanish. Well, that can still happen. Things have not changed enough to say that that prediction was not accurate.

-So, these young people today have fewer complexes about speaking Catalan?

-In part it’s that, but what I see is that they have more responsibility. Even responsibility for the preservation of diversity in general. They have the ability to see that in a globalised world, if you don’t have something that makes you different, you are nothing. And that can contribute a lot to recovering the use of Catalan among young people, because I do believe they feel that, really, if you have nothing distinct to offer, the world is an awfully big place.

Demonstration in support of the Catalan-language-based
education system, 2014